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suppressor while owner is present

NFA paperwork & Federal/state NFA law discussion
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Bendersquint
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Postby Bendersquint » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:57 pm

JABE,

I second SignatureFirearms response, that is utter BS. There is no transfer of ownership and the NFA item is still under your control.

Rather than drafting a letter that will mean nothing, why don't you just give them a call and ask them if your buddy can shoot your NFA item while in your presence? 1-304-616-4500. Even the phone operators/secretaries can answer that question.

What about a suppressor demo and you are the shooter? Illegal by your understanding.
What about visits of your NFA while its in transfer? Illegal by your understanding.
Holding a silencer at a sales counter? Illegal by your understanding.
Machinegun/Silencer rentals? Illegal by your understanding.
What about a LE/Gov demo? Illegal by your understanding.

I know I brought up all these things in a prior post but see why that is utter BS?

By the way, Goldman was one of the vendors at the SilencersAreLegal shoot last year.......the ENTIRE event was about shooting suppressors that you did not own(and the ATF was THERE!) How did thousands of people escape charges for illegal transfers of NFA? Because the lawful owner was in control of the item.

We don't need more rulings or the possibility of NOT being able to let someone use your NFA item while in your presence because people continuously write letter.
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mark1916
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Postby mark1916 » Wed May 15, 2013 8:29 pm

For what it's worth, (keeping in mind that I am not an attorney), It is our understanding, and this is what we tell our customers because this is what our local ATF inspector has told us, it legal for someone to use a NFA item that is not registered to them provided that the individual to whom it is registered is present with a copy of his/her stamp.
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Bendersquint
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Postby Bendersquint » Wed May 15, 2013 10:11 pm

mark1916 wrote:For what it's worth, (keeping in mind that I am not an attorney), It is our understanding, and this is what we tell our customers because this is what our local ATF inspector has told us, it legal for someone to use a NFA item that is not registered to them provided that the individual to whom it is registered is present with a copy of his/her stamp.


You are dead-nuts correct!

It is not considered by the ATF a transfer unless the registered only leaves the presence of the NFA item!
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SC-Texas
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Postby SC-Texas » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:09 am

Ya know, if merely handing the nfa item to another was an illegal transfer then how could. An ffl show the can to a customer?
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Immortal Arms
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Postby Immortal Arms » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:50 am

Legally possession is to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over property. Standing there with someone while they use it has not removed your "dominion or control".
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Postby GraniteStater » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:06 am

New to the forum.
I would offer the greatest caution when taking advice from an IOI. More than once I've had one tell me something I knew not to be true. Local law enforcement, well, I think we all know where their advice will get you. There are only two ways to know what the law is. First, read it for yourself. The ATF Guide Book is helpful but it is not the law, it is the ATF equivilant of Cliff Notes on the the law and their regulations. Transfer is not defined by ATF NFA Guide Chapter 9.1, it is defined by 26 USC Subtitle E Chapter 53 Subchapter B Part 1 Subsection 5845 which the guide book actually quotes verbatim. The operative part of the definition is "...or otherwise dispose of". Meaning all preceding words are synonyms for "disposing of". A dealer who allows a customer to handle an item has not disposed in large part because the item hasn't left his premise, same with rentals. At a "shoot" or at the range the benefit of geographical propriety is absent and we must call on some other mechanism for retaining control. That mechanism must also agree with a fact we concede which is even when an NFA item is at our personal address we have surrendered control in our absence unless it be specially secured. For this we can look to the definition of "dispose" since that's the word the law finds most appropriate to bring the Transfer definition to summation. According to West's Encyclopedia of American Law Edition 2 "Act of Disposing; transferring to the care or possession of another. The parting with, alienation of, or giving up of property." The use of the word "possession" may mislead but we can see in context it is the equivalent of ownership. We can can also see that letting your buddy shoot your NFA item at the range or at a shoot does not meet the above definition since you are not transferring the care (responsibility) possession (ownership), you are not parting with, alienating or giving it up. I mentioned there were two ways to know the law. The second is to write a letter to the ATF. This is exactly what you are suppose to do. I have done it and they are very responsive and informative. Do not call, write. It is a tremendous resource. It is important to remember though that a letter from the ATF is not law and the ATF can very well reverse an opinion. But the letter sure would offer a great affirmative defense (if applicable). Equally, you may write to your state's Attorney General to inquire about that state's law. This does not feed them nefarious ideas, they have enough already (recent NFA rule changes to trusts not with standing. I may disagree with the actions of the NFATCA in their notions of compromise but they are hardly to blame. The DOJ was not blind to the logistics of NFA Trusts). Having said all this in support of the notion we may share our NFA Firearms, I have still invested in a robust Trust that empowers without question my extended family and friends the legal use of my collection. That is of course unless I am completely wrong.

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